On Hawtness and Romances

 

So, obviously, it takes me a while to get around to anything lately. I’ve been thinking about this since I read a comment by Nora Roberts at Dear Author (in response to Jane Litte’s article Let’s Talk About Sex (and Love,  and then Sex Again) which posed the question of how/why/what it’ll take for romance to be accepted in the same way as a show like Bones, where the sexual tension and romantic subplots aren’t belittled):

when writers and readers talk about the hawt, hawt, hawt, then it becomes about the hawt–and not about the sex within the context of the story. It’s that the detractors and the media will jump on, while they disregard all the rest.

I don’t want to be known as a writer of hawt books. I want to be known as a good writer–whose books contain well written love scenes as well as good characterization, strong dialogue, a solid story, etc.

And my reaction was kind of like: nod, frown, nod, frown, nod, frown. Because I agree: to talk about how hawt books are when speaking with someone unfamiliar with the genre moves the focus completely onto the hawtness. But within the genre — hell, even on this blog — I like using “hawt” and to mention the heat level. The term “hawt,” IMO, has become a shorthand for “explicit” that also distances me, as a person/author/reader, from the eroticism of the novel.

I probably have to explain that. (Long post coming up after the cut.)

As reader and author, I have a different vocabulary (so to speak) when I’m speaking with someone familiar with the genre and with someone unfamiliar with the genre. When I’m talking to someone outside the genre, I always always always focus on the story and the whole:  it’s about characterization, dialogue, the plot (the romantic plot and the external plot). If, at some point, the person expresses a wish to read the book (and I think they’re being genuine), I will mention if there is explicit sex. And I say it like that: there are love scenes, and they are on the explicit side — and necessary to the story. Only because they are explicit do I feel the need to mention it; every reader has a different comfort level … and I wouldn’t want to surprise someone and discomfit them completely. (Readers in the genre probably know what to expect when they see how a book is packaged or labeled. Outside the genre, maybe not so much. But I don’t want to alienate a reader with an erect cock that shouts “surprise!”on page 198. If I get the sense that she/he would be uncomfortable, I can recommend another book.)

Usually, there aren’t any jokes after that. But if there are, I don’t respond to it much — I just reiterate that it’s a good story, and that I love the characters. (Questions like “did you research those scenes yourself” are given a flat “No” or are ignored.)

And I would never, ever use the word “hawt” to describe the novels, as in, “it’s so hawt!” (Actually, in real life, I’d probably never use that word (hot or hawt) with anyone except a superclose friend, and even then I’d probably be parodying something in pop culture (or talking about Batman) … although I might say to this hypothetical reader something like, “they are on the hotter side,” if I’m trying to judge the comfort level).

Within the genre, however, is an entirely different story — I feel that when I use a term like “hawt” to describe a book I just read, it does several things:

It tells readers to expect explicit scenes. We all know there are varying degrees of heat within the books, and every reader has their preference. Usually, mine are the more explicit books, but I do like a sweeter one now and then. If I say a book is hawt (or hot, or scorching, or smoking, or wayhawt) anyone reading a write-up of the novel is going to know what sort of scenes are contained within it. All other things being equal (quality of writing, intensity of emotion, tightness of plot) put two books in front of me and tell me one is hotter, I’ll probably pick the hotter one. So, depending upon the reader’s preference, it can be a caution or a selling point.

It allows me to state my satisfaction with the sexual portion of the book and how it fits into the story in a way that feels comfortable to me.  Honestly, a term like “erotic” is just too personal, and I would only use it for certain books (books that I don’t mind expressing a deep emotional or intellectual attachment to). Terms like hawt, wayhawt, smoking all allow me to take a step back from my response to the book, so that when I talk about it, it feels like I’m talking about the book and not my reaction to it.

Tangent — the question might be, “why do I have to mention satisfaction with the sexual portions of the book at all?” I can only answer that if there is a love scene, (to me) it becomes a part of the novel that is almost up there with plot and dialogue. If there are love scenes, I want them to be effective scenes (not ON me, but according to character and movement of the romance). A sex scene that falls flat is almost as disappointing as trite dialogue, because then an integral part of the romance (if a sex scene is in a romance, it should be an integral part of the novel) has fallen flat. And because in a good sex scene, there is usually so much more going on than just Tab A and Slot B — there might be an emotional shift, a power shift, something revealed, a resolution, a realization. Every scene in a novel should have something, of course — plot movement, character building or growth; but in love scenes, the layering of the physical and emotional deepens and converges. In other scenes, you can have action or introspection or realization — but rarely at the same time. If someone is fighting hand-to-hand with a baddie and having an emotional epiphany at the same moment, I’d probably laugh my ass off (although I’m sure there are some books I’ve read that have pulled it off.) But overlapping physical action with emotion in a sex scene? Yes, yes, yes. So I expect a certain intensity from love scenes in romance — and if a book fails to deliver that intensity then you can bet I’m going to single it out, just as I would if it delivers in spades. And if an author consistently delivers in spades, I’ll probably use the term “hawt” when describing her books in general. “Hawt” might not be the first term I’d use (“awesome” would probably come first. Kresley Cole’s IAD series, for example, I might describe (on this blog/to another romance reader who was familiar with my personality) as: An awesome, tightly plotted, fun and hawt paranormal series with great characters and fantastic romance. (And if they weren’t familiar with my personality, I’d probably substitute “sexy” for “hawt”.))

Tangent roundup — So this pretty much boils down to: IMO, if there are sex scenes, they are an important part of the romance. (Note: Not “Sex scenes are necessary for romance,” or even “Sex scenes are the most important part of romance.”) And so when I discuss whether a book worked for me, I’m going to mention whether the sex scenes worked within the context of the story, just as I’d mention if the dialogue worked or if the plot was an epic fail.

Which brings me to: dude, there is no way I’m going to talk about whether the sex scenes WORKED worked (if you know what I mean.) That’s no one’s business. Yet it is very difficult — in a genre where emotional response is another important component — to get across “the love scenes were effective” without a) inadvertently suggesting something about THAT response (which I would never do, because, ew — far too much information) and b) stripping the emotion and intensity out of the scenes by using words like “effective.”

An effective scene might be exactly the same as a wayhawt scene — but, really, I’d rather read a wayhawt one.  And I assume that when the discussion of a book is within a circle of readers/authors, it is understood that “wayhawt” means: explicit, well-written sex scenes — and that they don’t think I’m saying I got all hot and bothered while reading (ew ew ew (it’s even weirding me out to suggest that I might get hot and bothered – there’s a line I hope never, ever to cross on this blog)). And the fact that “hawt” isn’t even a real word is just another step removing me (the living, breathing, emotionally responsive person) from the blogging me who writes about books in a virtual environment. (Heh — while, at the same time, trying to infuse a distinct personality in to the blogging me … because the blogging me doesn’t like to use words like “effective”. I know, I know — it’s all crazy.)

Of course, the problem is that while — as far as I’m concerned — this blog is written for a romance-reading audience, it’s also very, very public. I’ve said that books were hawt on this blog (the last, I believe, was when I said Through the Veil contained Shiloh Walker’s “wayhawt love scenes”) but hopefully the other aspects of the write-ups show that a book is made up of more than hawtness. Can anyone control, though, what someone takes away from any post? No. And so I think it could be very easy for a non-romance reader to see “hawt” and think: silly, sex-obsessed romance readers.

Do I care? … sigh.

A part of me automatically thinks: No. I do not care. Fuck ‘em. But I think the truth is that it’s more like, I wish I didn’t have to not-care. It’s hard to not-care, dammit; when romance is dismissed so easily by outsiders, it actually takes an effort to not care, it makes me grit my teeth, and I don’t like doing it.

I like even less the idea of changing the way I talk in an informal atmosphere (with fellow romance readers) on the chance that an outsider might draw the wrong conclusion based on very real (and easily misinterpreted) evidence on my blog.

A part of me knows that for many readers, it really is the hawt hawt hawt that is all-important (but is that a completely different thing? I don’t know. A part of me realizes that is kind of what NR is addressing in the quote, the focus on hawt to the exclusion of everything else (whether originating from inside or taken away by the outside) … but I wonder if it is the degree of the focus that is the issue, or that it (sex, and talking about it) is there at all. In any case, my question here is: if a reader does read for the hawt, and an author does play up the hawtness** — why should that keep romance from being acceptable to those outside the genre? Is sex (and the focus on it, the marketing of it) the big stumbling block to genre acceptance? I don’t know. Bones has its share of fans screaming “hawt!” … but it doesn’t make the show unacceptable. But, on the other hand, are those fans getting the rolly-eyes from other fans? I just don’t know.)

A part of me thinks that I should put a disclaimer on the blog that informs outside readers that they are entering another dimension, where the language and assumptions are different from the “normal” world.  Where, even though they think they know the language (hawt) they should contact me and ask for a translation before they leave this alternate dimension, or they will go with absolutely the wrong impression.

A part of me thinks that we could take sex out of romance and the genre would still never be as culturally acceptable as a show like Bones. Also from Nora: [It's] more fun [for the detractors] to sneer and smirk than to think about it and say: Hmmm, books that celebrate human emotion and relationships, and sex ARE valuable. Plus fun.

Yeah, I think that’s true, too.

I don’t know if there is a way.

But for me, I think it boils down to: If there is sex in a romance novel, it’s an important part of the romance. I won’t pretend it’s not. I don’t want to pretend it’s not; I think sex in romance novels is great*. But it’s not all there is, and it’s unfortunate that has to constantly be stressed to readers outside the genre. So, to those readers outside the genre, I’ll keep plugging along and talking about romance like I always have (and trying to write damn good books that I’d be happy to show anyone) … and here, I’ll keep going like I always have (but especially keep trying to write damn good books).

But I might put up that disclaimer.

*And you know, I want it both ways: I want readers to be able to discuss sex scenes to death, to devote pages and pages of text to them, to analyze them, to talk about what works and doesn’t, to talk about gender and power … or simply, say “Oh, man, that book was so hawt!” — and to have both reactions and forms of expression/discussion be equally valid and acceptable, inside and outside the genre.

(In case you can’t tell, no one has ever called me a realist.)

**From a marketing standpoint, I see why authors might play up the hawtness. But I have to say I’m one of those readers who, if I read anything about it crossing over from fiction to personal (the author researching with her husband, a reader playing out something from a book), I can’t run the other way fast enough. From the reader side or the author side … anytime it goes beyond the book into someone’s room, it’s a major squick moment. But I wonder if romance is more prone to it than any other genre?

11 comments

1|

Great post Meljean, I did read that article at Dear Author.

I have a conflicted opinion about all of this. As a reader, of course I love the sex in the books and I am with you, the hotter, the better.

As a reviewer though (and I do see myself as a reviewer given that I spend most of my waking hours now reading and reviewing for the blog) , I try not to mention the sex too much, sometimes not at all (actually most times not at all) , because I do not wish for the genre to keep being reduced to it. My main reason for starting the blog was that I wished to write reviews about good romance novels that would be in -depth and would contain character and background information in an effort to show the detractors of the genre (not that I expect everyone to be reading my blog, I am not a realist either) that there is much more to romance novels than “girl meets guys, they have sex, they fight, they get together, the end”.

What does this say about me as a reviewer though? After reading your post I am starting to think that there is something very important missing from my reviews – I may start talking more about the sex – after all it is an essential part of a romance isn’t it?

One last thing though, I have promised myself not to use the word hawt EVER. (I plan to keep this promise although I am THIS close from using it in my review of Through the Veil. Man, than book was scorching.)

Anyways, great post, a lot of food for thought there.

2|

Errata: (not that I expect everyone to be reading my blog, I am not a realist either)

3|

Grr. I’m still thinking of tangents I’d like to go on.

The problem is, this topic is SO huge: One, is just a term like “hawt” and its usage. When I first started using it online, it was a joke. But eventually, I found it was a really comfortable way to say: this is curl-your-toes sexy.

And it’s undeniably vapid.

But it’s fun! And it does reinforce that Internet ‘distance’ that I want to maintain when I’m talking about my response (again, not the ‘ew’ response) to sex scenes in novels. Sex itself, I can talk about without that need for distance — but as soon as anything personal comes along, I’m inching back and reaching for the hawts.

But it’s not just about “hawt” — just mentioning sex and the level of heat is like a red flag to anyone who is looking for one. And yet, because readers’ comfort levels are so varied, it’s hard NOT to mention it so that we can decide whether it’s a book we’d be interested in or not. We can’t pretend the level of heat doesn’t influence a lot of us (or the prose style during those scenes). And then once the heat levels have been established … well, do the scenes actually work? So any discussion of romance is probably going to involve sex, in some way or another (even though the word choices will be different).

Then there’s the marketing aspect (the covers, the titles — but even within the genre, there’s no consensus. Some readers/authors love them, some hate them — so that discussion could circle around forever (and has, on this blog and practically every other blog out there)) and the bare fact that some readers are focusing on the sex when they read the books, and some authors are focusing on the sex when they write them. So of course their discussions/interviews/whatever else are going to focus on the sex. And more power to them — and maybe if sex wasn’t such a weird issue with so many people (inside and outside the genre) that kind of focus would just be … I dunno, normal.

Then there is the discussion of what’s too personal/what’s acceptable in a public forum. As a reader and author, my line of comfort is probably much different than other lines out there. There’s really no way for a consensus on that, either.

But I think Nora hit it square on when she said that it’s just more fun to sneer than to celebrate what romance is (even the sex).

And I think in a general sense (not just genre-wise) I’m getting more and more frustrated by the conflicting messages about sex: it’s forward-thinking and empowering to embrace our sexuality, but it’s stupid and shallow to use sex as a marketing tool, or to talk about it in simple terms: hawt. But this is internal, too — I want to be able to look at an attractive man on a cover and not apologize for thinking: hawt … and I want to know that publishers aren’t thinking that I’m buying a book just because the guy on the cover happens to be attractive (because I’m not).

I should go to bed.

4|
As a reviewer though (and I do see myself as a reviewer given that I spend most of my waking hours now reading and reviewing for the blog) , I try not to mention the sex too much, sometimes not at all (actually most times not at all) , because I do not wish for the genre to keep being reduced to it. My main reason for starting the blog was that I wished to write reviews about good romance novels that would be in -depth and would contain character and background information in an effort to show the detractors of the genre (not that I expect everyone to be reading my blog, I am not a realist either) that there is much more to romance novels than “girl meets guys, they have sex, they fight, they get together, the end”.

What does this say about me as a reviewer though? After reading your post I am starting to think that there is something very important missing from my reviews – I may start talking more about the sex – after all it is an essential part of a romance isn’t it?

I think a lot of it depends on what you see your audience as, too — and speaking just as a reader of your blog, I’ve thought your reviews always maintained a nice balance and mentioned everything salient. I didn’t realize it was deliberate; I just thought it was how you read the books, in a way that de-emphasized the sex without pretending it wasn’t there. And I realize more and more I do the same — I mentioned Shiloh’s book, and the “wayhawt” … but that was one line out of a two-page write-up. Because there was sex, but there was also a lot more going on that I wanted to talk about. So, I focused on the rest. Now, if there had been a sex scene that just made me go: holy crap, I must talk about this!! I can’t believe what she did in this love scene!! I’d have written about it.

I guess I’m saying that: it’s not that I think every review should have an in-depth examination of the sex scenes, but that — in general terms — sex in romance can’t be completely ignored; it’ll come up, it’ll be mentioned, and the effectiveness will be discussed (using all kinds of terms, and in all kinds of ways). On an individual basis, sure it can be kept at whatever minimum best serves the reader/audience, and that’s at the discretion of the individual.</p>
<p>But I do think it’s unfortunate that when we do discuss sex scenes, that someone, somewhere, is thinking that their sneering little opinion of romance has been confirmed.

Me, I won’t mention sex in certain situations (interviews, with non-genre readers) unless it’s brought up, because of the red-flag problem. But here, my audience is almost all romance readers, so I don’t have the same issue. I imagine every reader/author is in a different position.

5|

I do not understand, have never understood, and will never understand the necessity of impressing those sneering detractors with the validity of the genre. I call them genrists. They have a similar mindset to racists—inflexible, ignorant, yet utterly certain in their correctness. Nothing anyone can say or do is ever going to change that sort of ingrained bias, so why waste one second of our time even considering what those people think of the books, the writers thereof, or the readers thereof?

I get pissed off every time the “don’t talk about the hawt because it makes us all look bad to The World” discussion comes up because it dismisses the sex, dismisses the reader who would be reading something other than romance if she didn’t want to read about characters having sex, and presumes to dictate how everyone should protray the genre and their involvement with it to The World. It reinforces the notion we’re doing something shameful here and need to hide those scenes and those readers and writers uncouth enough to mention them.

I find that treatment, coming from “insiders,” exponentially more offensive than any dumbass remark I’ve ever heard from an “outsider.”

6|

Your post is teh awesome, Meljean.

As a writer of the hawt stuff myself, I frequently find myself having to talk about the sex in my books, and hoping that people don’t lose sight of the story, the characters and the romance to focus only on the explicit sex within.

Is sex a primary focus in my stories? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. It depends on the particular plotline for the story. Some of my books have more sex, some have less. I would hope that readers come to read my books because I write great characters with engaging dialogue and interesting plots. The sex, to me, has always been a bonus–to be able to see beyond the bedroom door, to experience in great detail the burgeoning relationship between the characters. Sex isn’t the be all, end all of the romance. It’s an integrated component, along with so many other facets that we seem to lose sight of in order to concentrate on the hawt.

Do I want to ignore the sex? Oh hell no. It’s a large part of the books I write. I love that I get to write it without slamming the bedroom door closed. But I don’t want the sex alone to define me as a writer. I want the story to define me as a writer.

Now when I meet someone who is interested in hearing what I do for a living, and I tell them I write romance, some of these people aren’t romance readers, but express an interest in reading my books. Which I think is great, but I do tell them my books are romances that contain explicit sex. I make no apologies for what I write because I love my career and I’m proud of the books I’ve produced. People outside the genre can choose to read my books or not, but at least they’ve been told ahead of time what to expect. And hey, I always hope I can convert a few non romance readers.

Not sure any of this made sense. I need more caffeine this morning.:cool:

7|

Very interesting, and, for me, eye-opening post Meljean. I don’t consider myself a romance reader, but I do try to keep an open mind, and I have read romances and enjoyed them. If it weren’t for Ana, though, I probably wouldn’t have given the genre a chance, primarily because of the ‘hawt’ sentiment.

Cards on the table, hawt play-by-play sex scenes in romance novels either make me uncomfortable, or have me skimming ahead to get to the rest of the story. Worst case scenario, the book is based on sex without too much of a story to begin with (note this doesn’t just apply to quote unquote romance, but to oh say Anita Blake’s later books), and I feel like a woman without a country.

So, with that said, when someone describes a book as ‘hawt’, I appreciate it because I know to stay away (unless the story is also filled with spectacular other elements, then it becomes Approach With Caution).

On the notion of sex scenes in reviews (as dear Ana has commented above), it entirely depends on the book and how important said scenes are to the overall book. In ‘Kushiel’s Avatar’, for example, there’s a portion where Phedre’s ‘gift’ (the mote in her eye) has been taken from her, and she feels empty, without love or that essential part of her that made her HER. When she recovers that lost part of her soul, it’s through a love scene with Joscelin (and the blessing of Elua)–and this is one of the most beautiful scenes I have ever read. Had I reviewed this book, I would have mentioned it in a heartbeat because it is integral to the overall story, and it made an impact on me. I’d imagine this would be the same for romance reviews and romance readers.

>”why should that keep romance from being acceptable to those outside the genre? Is sex (and the focus on it, the marketing of it) the big stumbling block to genre acceptance? I don’t know. Bones has its share of fans screaming “hawt!” … but it doesn’t make the show unacceptable. But, on the other hand, are those fans getting the rolly-eyes from other fans? I just don’t know.)”

I don’t watch Bones, but as Ana will tell you, we are AVID LOST fans. And we are Skaters (translation: Sawyer and Kate shippers) (well, we were skaters…long story)–naturally we watched the show for the show, but the people we talk to online, the boards we participate on, and a lot of the spoiler whoring/speculation/fanfic/discussion would center around Sawyer and Kate, and why they are awesome together. And, from experience, I can say that some sneery-sneery comes from inside the fanbase as well. At least, initially.

I know this post was rambly…sorry :oops:

8|

Kerry Allen says: “Nothing anyone can say or do is ever going to change that sort of ingrained bias, so why waste one second of our time even considering what those people think of the books, the writers thereof, or the readers thereof?”

I understand your point but I beg to differ. Up until about 1 year ago I was one of the people that looked down on the romance genre. The tiles, the covers never helped me getting rid of the impression I had that it all was the same and it was all either bodice rippers or all about the sex. It took a couple of very good friends to keep telling me about plotlines, historical background or just telling me that these books can be good for me to pick one up. And I am proud to say that I did change my mind and furthermore, have become a proud reader and reviewer of the genre.

All I needed was a bit more of information. Sometimes it is all it takes.

9|

Well said, Meljean. I don’t want my books to be dismissed as “just being about sex”…but at the same time, I understand the heat factor is a marketing angle, a way to help readers identify books they might enjoy. So that being the case, having my books called “wayhawt” is complimentary and hopefully helps point interested readers that way, and discourage those readers who would find the content offensive.

It’s a tough topic. I try not to think about it too much because it makes my head hurt. I just try to write the kinds of books I’d want to read; good stories with vivid settings, lively characters, and exciting plots that are also wayhawt.

10|

As a reader I’m a bit schizophrenic on this topic. I understand the giddy excitement to share the news about a book you’ve read that is terrific and the bubbling enthusiasm that has you blurting something like, “…and the love scenes…OMG! Hol-eee crap! So intense…so hot/hawt”.

OTOH I am also a person who gets frustrated and disappointed when a conversation about a book I really liked/loved/enjoyed is marginalized as hot/hawt cover art and lush sex scenes. I hate when that happens.

11|
I do not understand, have never understood, and will never understand the necessity of impressing those sneering detractors with the validity of the genre.

Yeah, for me, it’s not about impressing anyone — don’t care about that. Mostly, it’s the annoyance of having to either defend/ignore the comments that are thrown our way.

And I wouldn’t mind having a few more avenues of reaching readers (reviews, etc). But that goes back to marketing, and is less about acceptance, and more about a frustration that, because people aren’t willing to see romance for what it is and just the sexy, those avenues will never be open.

Ana & Thea — this is really interesting to me, because I’ve ALWAYS been a romance reader. My husband doesn’t (and in fact was one of the sneering detractors until I pointed out: dude, I read them and love them. Do you really think I’d waste my time on something that didn’t have merit? … but even then, it took a while before he accepted that maybe I wasn’t just the exception out of millions of readers, sigh.)

So conversion stories are fascinating to me. I’ve had my own struggle with going from being a closeted reader (partially due to my age when I began, partially because of the stigma associated with romance) to being really open about it. But it’s still sometimes just easier not to mention that portion of my reading to people, because it invariably heads into a mention of the sex, sigh.

On reviews — it does depend on the book. In a book of erotica or that is erotic romance, I’d expect some mention of the sexual dynamics (or, as you pointed out, in the Kushiel series.) But, say, take Demon Moon — the sex is there, it’s on the explicit side, but I wouldn’t expect a review to focus on the scenes. A mention, maybe (especially if they sucked) but aside from a mention, either regarding the heat level or how well they fit into the novel/characters, what is there to say? Giving a play-by-play isn’t helpful, because everyone knows the mechanics.

Jaci & Charlene — I think this is the problem that we all have when talking about our books: we put the sex scene in there because they MEAN something, we like to make sure they are well written and erotic, and they are important to the story … so it feels not only misleading to suggest they aren’t (important, something we like writing, or hot) but it sells us short as writers. But we’re stuck with the knowledge that ONLY focusing on the hawt sells us short as writers, too — yet that is what people will do when they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. The hawt is easy to grab on to.

Honestly, I’m just glad I’m not in NR’s place. I’d love to have that level of success, but to be the face for romance … a genre that can’t just be represented by a face, and is happily spit upon? I don’t envy that. I think she handles it with class; I’m not sure I wouldn’t be a lot more pissy about it.

Rosie: lol! I think we’re all a bit schizo on this topic, which probably is why it’ll never be something that will sit comfortably. And definitely, if I’m talking with a reader I feel comfortable with, there will be some virtual fanning and the “smoking” commentary … because that is undeniably something I love about the genre (and why I prefer hotter books).

And I’ve felt the same frustration when the conversation about a book seems to go the way of sex-only. The In Death books, for example … every time the conversation veers onto the hotness of Roarke, I’m left scratching my head. I mean, who’d want Roarke if Eve was available? :joker:

Nah, but seriously — on one hand, we’re sold the hawtness of romance, so I expect those conversations to come up. Can’t blame anyone for them, especially if it’s a book/series we love. But when it’s pages and pages of it? … sigh, that’s when I go looking for another thread.