I do not understand, have never understood, and will never understand the necessity of impressing those sneering detractors with the validity of the genre.

Yeah, for me, it’s not about impressing anyone — don’t care about that. Mostly, it’s the annoyance of having to either defend/ignore the comments that are thrown our way.

And I wouldn’t mind having a few more avenues of reaching readers (reviews, etc). But that goes back to marketing, and is less about acceptance, and more about a frustration that, because people aren’t willing to see romance for what it is and just the sexy, those avenues will never be open.

Ana & Thea — this is really interesting to me, because I’ve ALWAYS been a romance reader. My husband doesn’t (and in fact was one of the sneering detractors until I pointed out: dude, I read them and love them. Do you really think I’d waste my time on something that didn’t have merit? … but even then, it took a while before he accepted that maybe I wasn’t just the exception out of millions of readers, sigh.)

So conversion stories are fascinating to me. I’ve had my own struggle with going from being a closeted reader (partially due to my age when I began, partially because of the stigma associated with romance) to being really open about it. But it’s still sometimes just easier not to mention that portion of my reading to people, because it invariably heads into a mention of the sex, sigh.

On reviews — it does depend on the book. In a book of erotica or that is erotic romance, I’d expect some mention of the sexual dynamics (or, as you pointed out, in the Kushiel series.) But, say, take Demon Moon — the sex is there, it’s on the explicit side, but I wouldn’t expect a review to focus on the scenes. A mention, maybe (especially if they sucked) but aside from a mention, either regarding the heat level or how well they fit into the novel/characters, what is there to say? Giving a play-by-play isn’t helpful, because everyone knows the mechanics.

Jaci & Charlene — I think this is the problem that we all have when talking about our books: we put the sex scene in there because they MEAN something, we like to make sure they are well written and erotic, and they are important to the story … so it feels not only misleading to suggest they aren’t (important, something we like writing, or hot) but it sells us short as writers. But we’re stuck with the knowledge that ONLY focusing on the hawt sells us short as writers, too — yet that is what people will do when they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. The hawt is easy to grab on to.

Honestly, I’m just glad I’m not in NR’s place. I’d love to have that level of success, but to be the face for romance … a genre that can’t just be represented by a face, and is happily spit upon? I don’t envy that. I think she handles it with class; I’m not sure I wouldn’t be a lot more pissy about it.

Rosie: lol! I think we’re all a bit schizo on this topic, which probably is why it’ll never be something that will sit comfortably. And definitely, if I’m talking with a reader I feel comfortable with, there will be some virtual fanning and the “smoking” commentary … because that is undeniably something I love about the genre (and why I prefer hotter books).

And I’ve felt the same frustration when the conversation about a book seems to go the way of sex-only. The In Death books, for example … every time the conversation veers onto the hotness of Roarke, I’m left scratching my head. I mean, who’d want Roarke if Eve was available? :joker:

Nah, but seriously — on one hand, we’re sold the hawtness of romance, so I expect those conversations to come up. Can’t blame anyone for them, especially if it’s a book/series we love. But when it’s pages and pages of it? … sigh, that’s when I go looking for another thread.

OTOH I am also a person who gets frustrated and disappointed when a conversation about a book I really liked/loved/enjoyed is marginalized as hot/hawt cover art and lush sex scenes. I hate when that happens.

It’s a tough topic. I try not to think about it too much because it makes my head hurt. I just try to write the kinds of books I’d want to read; good stories with vivid settings, lively characters, and exciting plots that are also wayhawt.

I understand your point but I beg to differ. Up until about 1 year ago I was one of the people that looked down on the romance genre. The tiles, the covers never helped me getting rid of the impression I had that it all was the same and it was all either bodice rippers or all about the sex. It took a couple of very good friends to keep telling me about plotlines, historical background or just telling me that these books can be good for me to pick one up. And I am proud to say that I did change my mind and furthermore, have become a proud reader and reviewer of the genre.

All I needed was a bit more of information. Sometimes it is all it takes.

Cards on the table, hawt play-by-play sex scenes in romance novels either make me uncomfortable, or have me skimming ahead to get to the rest of the story. Worst case scenario, the book is based on sex without too much of a story to begin with (note this doesn’t just apply to quote unquote romance, but to oh say Anita Blake’s later books), and I feel like a woman without a country.

So, with that said, when someone describes a book as ‘hawt’, I appreciate it because I know to stay away (unless the story is also filled with spectacular other elements, then it becomes Approach With Caution).

On the notion of sex scenes in reviews (as dear Ana has commented above), it entirely depends on the book and how important said scenes are to the overall book. In ‘Kushiel’s Avatar’, for example, there’s a portion where Phedre’s ‘gift’ (the mote in her eye) has been taken from her, and she feels empty, without love or that essential part of her that made her HER. When she recovers that lost part of her soul, it’s through a love scene with Joscelin (and the blessing of Elua)–and this is one of the most beautiful scenes I have ever read. Had I reviewed this book, I would have mentioned it in a heartbeat because it is integral to the overall story, and it made an impact on me. I’d imagine this would be the same for romance reviews and romance readers.

>”why should that keep romance from being acceptable to those outside the genre? Is sex (and the focus on it, the marketing of it) the big stumbling block to genre acceptance? I don’t know. Bones has its share of fans screaming “hawt!” … but it doesn’t make the show unacceptable. But, on the other hand, are those fans getting the rolly-eyes from other fans? I just don’t know.)”

I don’t watch Bones, but as Ana will tell you, we are AVID LOST fans. And we are Skaters (translation: Sawyer and Kate shippers) (well, we were skaters…long story)–naturally we watched the show for the show, but the people we talk to online, the boards we participate on, and a lot of the spoiler whoring/speculation/fanfic/discussion would center around Sawyer and Kate, and why they are awesome together. And, from experience, I can say that some sneery-sneery comes from inside the fanbase as well. At least, initially.

I know this post was rambly…sorry

As a writer of the hawt stuff myself, I frequently find myself having to talk about the sex in my books, and hoping that people don’t lose sight of the story, the characters and the romance to focus only on the explicit sex within.

Is sex a primary focus in my stories? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. It depends on the particular plotline for the story. Some of my books have more sex, some have less. I would hope that readers come to read my books because I write great characters with engaging dialogue and interesting plots. The sex, to me, has always been a bonus–to be able to see beyond the bedroom door, to experience in great detail the burgeoning relationship between the characters. Sex isn’t the be all, end all of the romance. It’s an integrated component, along with so many other facets that we seem to lose sight of in order to concentrate on the hawt.

Do I want to ignore the sex? Oh hell no. It’s a large part of the books I write. I love that I get to write it without slamming the bedroom door closed. But I don’t want the sex alone to define me as a writer. I want the story to define me as a writer.

Now when I meet someone who is interested in hearing what I do for a living, and I tell them I write romance, some of these people aren’t romance readers, but express an interest in reading my books. Which I think is great, but I do tell them my books are romances that contain explicit sex. I make no apologies for what I write because I love my career and I’m proud of the books I’ve produced. People outside the genre can choose to read my books or not, but at least they’ve been told ahead of time what to expect. And hey, I always hope I can convert a few non romance readers.

Not sure any of this made sense. I need more caffeine this morning.:cool:

I get pissed off every time the “don’t talk about the hawt because it makes us all look bad to The World” discussion comes up because it dismisses the sex, dismisses the reader who would be reading something other than romance if she didn’t want to read about characters having sex, and presumes to dictate how everyone should protray the genre and their involvement with it to The World. It reinforces the notion we’re doing something shameful here and need to hide those scenes and those readers and writers uncouth enough to mention them.

I find that treatment, coming from “insiders,” exponentially more offensive than any dumbass remark I’ve ever heard from an “outsider.”

As a reviewer though (and I do see myself as a reviewer given that I spend most of my waking hours now reading and reviewing for the blog) , I try not to mention the sex too much, sometimes not at all (actually most times not at all) , because I do not wish for the genre to keep being reduced to it. My main reason for starting the blog was that I wished to write reviews about good romance novels that would be in -depth and would contain character and background information in an effort to show the detractors of the genre (not that I expect everyone to be reading my blog, I am not a realist either) that there is much more to romance novels than “girl meets guys, they have sex, they fight, they get together, the end”.

What does this say about me as a reviewer though? After reading your post I am starting to think that there is something very important missing from my reviews – I may start talking more about the sex – after all it is an essential part of a romance isn’t it?

I think a lot of it depends on what you see your audience as, too — and speaking just as a reader of your blog, I’ve thought your reviews always maintained a nice balance and mentioned everything salient. I didn’t realize it was deliberate; I just thought it was how you read the books, in a way that de-emphasized the sex without pretending it wasn’t there. And I realize more and more I do the same — I mentioned Shiloh’s book, and the “wayhawt” … but that was one line out of a two-page write-up. Because there was sex, but there was also a lot more going on that I wanted to talk about. So, I focused on the rest. Now, if there had been a sex scene that just made me go: holy crap, I must talk about this!! I can’t believe what she did in this love scene!! I’d have written about it.

I guess I’m saying that: it’s not that I think every review should have an in-depth examination of the sex scenes, but that — in general terms — sex in romance can’t be completely ignored; it’ll come up, it’ll be mentioned, and the effectiveness will be discussed (using all kinds of terms, and in all kinds of ways). On an individual basis, sure it can be kept at whatever minimum best serves the reader/audience, and that’s at the discretion of the individual.</p>
<p>But I do think it’s unfortunate that when we do discuss sex scenes, that someone, somewhere, is thinking that their sneering little opinion of romance has been confirmed.

Me, I won’t mention sex in certain situations (interviews, with non-genre readers) unless it’s brought up, because of the red-flag problem. But here, my audience is almost all romance readers, so I don’t have the same issue. I imagine every reader/author is in a different position.

The problem is, this topic is SO huge: One, is just a term like “hawt” and its usage. When I first started using it online, it was a joke. But eventually, I found it was a really comfortable way to say: this is curl-your-toes sexy.

And it’s undeniably vapid.

But it’s fun! And it does reinforce that Internet ‘distance’ that I want to maintain when I’m talking about my response (again, not the ‘ew’ response) to sex scenes in novels. Sex itself, I can talk about without that need for distance — but as soon as anything personal comes along, I’m inching back and reaching for the hawts.

But it’s not just about “hawt” — just mentioning sex and the level of heat is like a red flag to anyone who is looking for one. And yet, because readers’ comfort levels are so varied, it’s hard NOT to mention it so that we can decide whether it’s a book we’d be interested in or not. We can’t pretend the level of heat doesn’t influence a lot of us (or the prose style during those scenes). And then once the heat levels have been established … well, do the scenes actually work? So any discussion of romance is probably going to involve sex, in some way or another (even though the word choices will be different).

Then there’s the marketing aspect (the covers, the titles — but even within the genre, there’s no consensus. Some readers/authors love them, some hate them — so that discussion could circle around forever (and has, on this blog and practically every other blog out there)) and the bare fact that some readers are focusing on the sex when they read the books, and some authors are focusing on the sex when they write them. So of course their discussions/interviews/whatever else are going to focus on the sex. And more power to them — and maybe if sex wasn’t such a weird issue with so many people (inside and outside the genre) that kind of focus would just be … I dunno, normal.

Then there is the discussion of what’s too personal/what’s acceptable in a public forum. As a reader and author, my line of comfort is probably much different than other lines out there. There’s really no way for a consensus on that, either.

But I think Nora hit it square on when she said that it’s just more fun to sneer than to celebrate what romance is (even the sex).

And I think in a general sense (not just genre-wise) I’m getting more and more frustrated by the conflicting messages about sex: it’s forward-thinking and empowering to embrace our sexuality, but it’s stupid and shallow to use sex as a marketing tool, or to talk about it in simple terms: hawt. But this is internal, too — I want to be able to look at an attractive man on a cover and not apologize for thinking: hawt … and I want to know that publishers aren’t thinking that I’m buying a book just because the guy on the cover happens to be attractive (because I’m not).

…

I should go to bed.